Synch Sound Module

[MovieStuff]

Hi, guys!

Okay, my tortured brain has come up with an idea that I think is workable. Here goes:

I've been experimenting with a module that can be adhered to any movie camera that will detect the running of the camera's motor and use that as a signal to start or stop a recorder. The idea is that, when the camera starts, the recorder will start and when the camera stops the recorder will stop. More importantly, there would be a module that creates a beep tone after the camera starts and then also creates one after the camera stops. The delay (about 6 frames) between the start of the camera and the first tone will be identical to the delay between the stopping of the camera and the second tone, which will happen just before the recorder is instructed to stop.

Once the film has been transferred to video, the user would find the first frame of the cut, offset the first audio beep by 6 frames, stretch the audio until the second beep is also offset by six frames at the end of the cut, then everything in between will be in synch.

Here is a diagram of the proposed set up:



The recorder could be any type that has a remote start/stop socket or that can be wired for that function. I think this type of set up would simplify the sound recording process for people shooting with non crystal synch cameras and would save film and time since the head and tail slate would be automatic.

Cameras that have a remote socket would not need the sensor as they could be started simultaneously with the recorder using a variation of this same set up. Theoretically, the sensor version would even work with a spring wound camera!

Roger

[Matt Pacini]

Roger, I think it's mostly a great idea.
My following comments should not be regarded as criticism of the idea itself, just to tell you what my personal shooting habits are, and whether I would be likely to use it as is, or if you could modify the unit somehow to accomodate anyone with the same problem as I.

O.K., it would be great, BUT, I always start the audio recorder first, and state what we're shooting. You know, like "scene 6, setup one, take 3" etc., THEN I start the camera and slate.
This is because those dinky 2.5 minute cartridges are so short to begin with, that there's no reason to have 15 seconds of some dork standing there, waiting to slate, it's only the slate itself that's important.
By the end of the day, that extra 15 seconds a take really adds up.
So, if there was some way to have a remote, that would start the recorder maybe on the first hit of a button, then I could say all that crap, then hit it again, and it would start the camera, beep, until I turned it off.
Either that, or two buttons/switches.
This may be overcomplicating things, but if you also had a little flash attachement, maybe you could cannibalize one of those disposable cameras.... and when it beeped, it would also flash. Hell, you wouldn't even need a slate then.... (at least for the sync).

Matt Pacini




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[Scott Nocella]

Let's enjoy all our dreams.....and let's allow the good ones that promote peace come true....I love this post.....good stuff, take it from concept to reality....bring on the good reality and we'll have peace...this is what it's about.

Scott

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[MadFor3D]

How about this thing from the film group?
http://members.aol.com/fmgp/sync7.htm

"Pressing a button will produce a
bright flash of light and a tone burst substituted for the mic signal. The result being a 5-10 frame audible and visual marking to aid the editor in syncing up the dailies."

?????

Lights, Sound, Camera...

The moment the director calls camera the slate persons already got they're hand in front of the camera and they quickly press the button to slate the beginning. Then, when the director calls cut, the same guy quickly slates the end.

Not quick enough getting his hand in front of the camera and pressing the button to produce the tone and light flash? A waste of film there?

So, what about Matts idea to connect the thingy to an actual flash bulb. The moment the director calls cut, the guy quickly hits the button and the moment the camera man sees the flash he stops recording... no?

This all seems to be some great ideas to do some sync sound much cheaper. I just wonder how much it would really work? For really short shots it seems like it would work... I mean, you are talking about doing this with a non-crystal sync camera, correct?

Because, its my understanding that *wild* cameras don't run a constant enough speed. SQUISHING the film sample on the computer to match the exact in and out points on your audio sample... seems like ti should work on smaller shots... but, even then, don't *wild* cameras speed up and slow down so much based on a wide variety of factors...

Damn, if you got it to work, I'd way more like to do it that way- as it sounds like it would be much cheaper than $500, whatever, to crystal sync.

Roger, tame those wild cameras!

-M

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[MovieStuff]

Hey, Mad!

Well there are three different issues to be sorted out here.

1) Trying to shoot synch sound with fewer people

2) Trying to save film and time

3) Constant running speeds on cameras and their effect on synch sound

In regards to items one and two, the idea behind the synch module is it would allow for "one man band" operation, if necessary. Obviously, a simple flash/tone generator would work, but would require additional time, film and personel to use. The synch module simplifies the process to a more point and shoot operation requiring no slate of any kind.

In regards to item three, this unit would be much cheaper than crystal synching a camera AND could be used with any camera, in case something happened to the primary shooting camera. The problem with shooting wild sound generally isn't the camera running speed. If you shoot and record on a stable sound device and have your film Ranked, synching the sound after the fact is very consistent and easy to do. If the recorder is unstable, has weak batteries or the film was transferred on a home movie projector (which is VERY unstable compared to a movie camera) then all bets are off. The synch module is designed to be used with Rank type transfers so that the running speed of the film is constant. In all the synch module is merely a tool of convenience to help save time, film and personel.

Roger

[MadFor3D]

Sorry Roger,

Now I get it. I've made a simple button, on a small electronic box with a wire, that I use as a remote switch to trigger filming on my camera. Your saying that your devise will allow such a button to automaticall start the recorder at the same time, produce a sound on the recorder, and do both at the end as well to stop recording.

I really like the idea. It sounds like the *constant* running speed of a camera might not be such an issue if its a well maintained camera with freshly charged batteries...?

I have 1 roll of unused k40 I was planning on shooting to determine the relationship between the manual exposure and my hand held light meter, on my new Nizo 4080. Now you got me really wanting to test a couple of sound shots as well.

... Have you guys ever seen one of those cool clocks that makes an image of the time appear to be floating in the air? Ha ha ha, ahhh, I just had the funniest idea. Now I'm really going crazy. What if you had one of those things mounted to the front of your camera. Somehow, set to display SMPTE like those Pro slates for music videos. So it displays the exact time code number as on your song thats playing, then, once you start recording it automatically stops after a few frames of delay... Doing the same thing at the end as well. Thus, stamping a few frames with the code info for syncing...

I really like your idea Roger, but I fear that syncing lots of little clips for a music video lip-sync would be difficult for such a setup. Just seems like it should be as easy for that as well.

-M



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[MovieStuff]

Well, admittedly, the idea for the synch module was for location sound recording. It doesn't really apply itself to music video production since it is more of an "auto synch mark" device than an actuall synching device. The idea of the sensor is that it will pick up the motor vibrations and immediately start the recorder. There would be a tone 1/4 of a second after both the start and stop of the camera. Once digitized, the sound would be stretched to match the length of the film clip (from beep to beep), then slid down 6 frames. Again, it's a tool of convenience. Also, once the longest clip were adjusted, then that speed setting could be applied to all the other clips, since shorter ones would line up automatically.

Roger

[Matt Pacini]

Back to my problem though.
Could you put a time on it, so I could say all my marking stuff, BEFORE the camera starts, & the device puts out a beep tone?
Or maybe, a way to manually start the recorder, say my stuff, THEN hit the master start button, which would start the camera, then stop both units (with beep tone) at the end?

Matt Pacini

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[digvid]

Roger -

I would be interested in this device. Sounds very useful.

- digvid

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[MovieStuff]

Sure, there could be an advance on the unit where you start the recorder, state your information, then hit a button that starts the camera and puts a beep on the tape simultaneously. Then hitting the same button will stop the camera and put a tail beep on the tape. OR, you hit on button and there is like a 10 second delay for you to state your slate information, then the camera starts automatically along with the recorder, etc.

In either case, there would be no 6 frame offset. The camera would start at exactly the same instant that the beep starts and would also stop the instant the last beep starts. All you'd have to do is line up the first frame and the last frame with the leading edge of the beeps and you'd be good to go!

Roger

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited September 22, 2001).]